Talk:Macedonia

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History of Macedonia

2.4 Independence of the Republic of Macedonia

2.5 Controversy: Republic of Macedonia and Greece

2.6 Controversy: Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria

2.7 Macedonia and the Yugoslav Wars

This history, is history of FYROM! Not history of article "Macedonia"

Vergina 20:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Get a psychiatrist, Philareth

Get a psychatrist, Philareth, you are in a desperate need of one. Did you actually have foam on your mouth when you wrote that crap above? Because you behave as if you have rabies. And learn my name, it is not VMRO but VMORO. I'll go to the marshes when you pack your bags and go to Asia Minor. I am sure the Turks will organize you a gracious welcome for you, haha... VMORO

Yeah, and something else - if that (meaning the Sad lot piece of prose) is a manifestation of Greek intellect, then Greece is in deep shit. Enjoy. VMORO

Your calling me names will not deter me from continuing to oppose your VMRO propaganda until it is completely removed from this Macedonia article. You may be a paid agent of the VMRO or of FYROM or I don't care who, but I don't need compensation other than the truth. I have no agenda to occupy or expand (like you and your buddies trying to invade Greece all the way to Thessaloniki). I just will not allow you to spread your filth here. Philaleth 12:09, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Macedonians at the Olympics

Vergina has contributed the following text but putting it at the end of the article is clearly inappropriate, so I've moved it here for discussion. The content appears to have been lifted from http://www.helleniccomserve.com/olympicmacedonians.htm (so it may also be a copyvio); perhaps it would be more appropriate to link out to that web page. I feel that it may be an unnecessary level of detail to go into in what is supposed to be an overview article. -- ChrisO 16:30, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Macedonians, who participated in the Olympics at Olympia, were as follows:

1.King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.

2.King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.

3.King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.

4.Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.

5.Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.

6.Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.

7.Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.

8.Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.

9.During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia”.

Relocation

As a matter of fact, the relocation of some of the article suggested by User:Vergina is not such a bad idea. Those parts relocated by Vergina actually fir much better the article on FYROM than that of Macedonia

Not exactly, a main country page must not have tens of paragraphs of history. Most of it would fit on History of the Republic of Macedonia but it needs to be integrated, not just evacuated in order to censor, which is what Vergina did.

And in any case, fact remains that this part of Macedonia is what determined the history of the region in the last fifteen (or fifty) years and it definitely needs some amount of mention on the main region page. --Joy [shallot] 18:01, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I personally don't care where it is. It just seemed as a good idea - at least yesterday VMORO. (I seem to have forgotten to sign yesterday)

On the contrary I care, and I would object moving the part relating to ancient Macedonians participating in the Olympics (if I've understood correctly and that's what we're talking about) in History of the Republic of Macedonia, which starts in the 20th century. Prior to that, there's the history of Macedonian Slavs, but moving this to such an article would directly associate the ancient Macedonians with the Macedonian Slavs. Etz Haim 16:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Etz.Haim, you don't know what you're talking about. The whole question regards the history of FYROM after 1945 AD and as far as I can remember there were no ancient Olympics after that date but if you insist...VMORO

VMORO, thanks for being so kind to point this out to me. It's always nice to have such a gifted person around, whose memories span centuries and that's so willing to assist. Etz Haim 00:52, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why is it that ChrisO moved so swiftly to remove from the article evidence of Macedonians having participated in the Olympics, rather than move it to a more appropriate place in the article? And why did he not at the same time remove the claims to the contrary? Because it would not support the revisionist POV and that would not be convenient to the VMRO and FYROM propaganda machine. Gentlemen. That is not NPOV. One of two things will happen here: Either

1. We will all work together to tell people that there are multiple points of view on the history of Macedonia and present ALL of the facts for the reader to make up their own mind - or
2. This article must be removed from here. I repeat myself and take this seriously: I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS TO BECOME A PROPAGANDA ARTICLE FOR FYROM AND VMRO.

I recommend that the VMRO agent and ChrisO and everyone else cease and desist from wholesale removals of mine or others' contributions which oppose the VMRO/FYROM propaganda POV and start to collaborate or this will become a permanent war of removals and reversions. I will take this to the full extent of the procedures available within Wikipedia and beyond if necessary. Philaleth 12:28, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Macedonia around 450 before Christ

Macedonia=Macedonia in Greece+ Bitola (FYROM)

FYROMs citys ,Ohrid,Prilep,Strumica,Kicevo, Tito Veles,Stip,Gostivar,Tetovo,Skopje,Kumanovo are not Macedonia! The borders of Macedonia are to see clear.

See Map:

Vergina 16:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

not NPOV

This article clearly cannot be considered to be NPOV. There are too many facts ommitted and too much spin and propaganda such that it constitutes a revision of the history of the region as of the rule of Tito in Yugoslavia. His attempt to occupy Greek territories by creating a Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and by manufacturing a "Macedonian" language out of Bulgarian was intitially supported by the Soviet Union and is well documented. Many of the claims made in this article to appear as "history" stem from those revisions. This article will have to remain marked as non-NPOV until such time as it presents facts and not propaganda. In the least, it will have to present two points of view: The FYROM propaganda and the Greek and Bulgarian positions that FYROM has co-opted historical and cultural figures and adopted the revisionist history that was produced by Tito's "scholars." Until this article meets NPOV standards I will insist that it remains marked as NPOV and I will recommend to VMORO to refrain from removing the mark.

Philaleth, what you say is true but it has been included in the article - you can clearly see it in the "Controversy" sections and in "Macedonia after 1945" (and in fact I have contributed to writing some of the things). However, you don't seem to understand that the language and the style that you want to use DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA SET BEFORE ANY INDEPENDENT SOURCE OF INFORMATION. Yours VMORO (not VMRO)

Philaleth 22:32, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dear VMRO (pun intended),

According to various tests my IQ is in the genius range. However I fail to understand your CAPITALIZED sentence. Independent sources of information don't set criteria for language and style. They provide information. Period. Now let's assume that you meant that the language I propose cannot be supported by any independent source of information: For your statement to have any merit, we would have to establish a clear definition of "independent source of information" and when it comes to history there is no such thing. So whereas your statement would be true, it would also be a truism, and therefore pointless (other than as a personal attack on me by you).

The search for the truth is no simple endeavour. It requires a complex process of painstakinigly accumulating information and "grading" the information according to the source, the period, the intended audience and a million other contextual parameters. Then it's necessary to establish if any of the information can be cross-checked and verified by all sources, if any of it can be shown irrefutably to be fallacious and the remainder of it has to be presented carefully, with proper context and its weight of probability of veracity. When I characterize the contents of this article as "swill" it is because I can prove, logically and verifiably, that it is. There is no way that you can possibly present some point of view (that did not exist until Tito was ordered by the USSR to expand to the Mediterranean and they agreed that the best way to lay the foundation for that is to manufacture a history, a language, a peoples and a culture that would allow for them to proceed with claims to Thessaloniki) and not present the opposite, which is documented as of 3,000 years ago by multiple, verifiable sources (whose context at the time is perfectly known and therefore appropriate weighing can be applied.) Case in point: The article contained some claims that Macedonians were not included in the Olympics. This claim cannot be shown to have existed before 600AD. I doubt it can be verifiably shown to have existed pre-Tito and the invention of Yugoslav Macedonia. However it is prominently displayed in Wikipedia as a fact. On the other hand, attempts to include information that undermines that claim, by ancient sources, verifiable (some in the original to this date!) have been maniacly opposed by you and a couple of others. It is blatantly clear that Wikipedia is a bunch of swill at the mercy of demagogues and charlatans and I just don't have the time or the inclination to clean up this clusterfuck. Have at it. In the end, by its nature, the whole thing is going to unravel into some sort of prolonged internal war between the incompatible agglomeration of tribes that are pretending to be "Macedonians" - so who gives a sh... (BTW VMORO was first established in 1893 under the name of Bulgarian Macedono-Odrin Revolutionary Committee and later renamed VMORO and then to VMRO (aka IMRO). Update your alias and stop hiding behind your finger.)

Dear Philareth,

you have been very sweet today. I liked especially the remark about the Bulgarian Macedono-Odrinski Revolutionary Committee after which I have actually named my profile. You can find more about the history of the name of IMRO (VMRO) at IMRO - as a result of the last edit I made a couple of days ago.

As for the rest: I cannot figure out yet as to why you insist on the version that the ancient Macedonians originally were Greek. This is a position, which is almost impossible to defend as all evidence points that they were probably of Thracian/Illyrian stock and were gradually Hellenized with time. But pretty much everyone here agrees that by the 4th cent. BC the ancient Macedonians were completely Hellenized (=they had become Greeks). So what's the problem really??? If you drop your over-nationalistic claims (which are not supported by anyone outside Greece), we can actually have quite a nice co-operation and continue the struggle against the FYROMian thieves of history together (which can actually make things a lot easier). Your VMORO

Discussion and Blocking

I increasingly start to think that the only way this article has any future is if it is put for discussion and possibly blocked for further editing. I appeal to all sane people who have contributed to writing it to take joint measures in that direction. ~~VMORO

The region took its name from the inhabitants, the Macedonians or Makednoi

I,56. By these lines when they came to him Croesus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian. See Herodot I,56 http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_1.htm

Vergina 12:50, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mythology is not worth much in the field of facts, Vergina VMORO

Demographics

Kapnisma - Who wrote The question of whether the ancient Macedonians were in fact Greek is controversial, as the ancient Greeks themselves explicitly regarded the Macedonians as non-Greek barbarians ? What are you talking about?Are you serious?The only one who said Macedonians were barbarians was Demosthenes on his speeches Philippic Orations against Philip.Isocrates,Polybius,Strabo,Arrian,Pausanias,Plutarch wrote quotes in which the say that Macedonians were greeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Do you want me to write down what they have said?